Debt Prison

**Disclaimer – Debtprison.net does not administer legal or financial advice. The contents of this website are my opinions on collection agencies and how to deal with them. Nothing on this website should be interpreted as legal advice or council. No opinions on this website should be used to replace the advice of your financial advisor or your legal council.

A highly trained bill collector knows how to get the most money out of defaulted debtors. While you are nervously thinking of what to say they are taking notes… updating your credit file. A good bill collector normally has an outgoing personality and tough outer shell. Therefore collectors learn early on not to take the job personal. They also learn how to take everything you say to build a case against you. A bill collector will listen carefully to everything you say (while at the same time recording the conversation), as well as the way you say it, to develop a plan of action which will most likely generate a payment from you. See also all of my articles on Collection Agencies.

Bill collectors are not your friend, and though they may appear concerned, they are really only concerned about their paycheck. Collectors work off of commission, often receiving 10 to 25% of your payment to the collection agency. So if they get you to cough up $100… they just made $25 buckaroos. These collectors also have a monthly quota to achieve. If they fail to meet the monthly collection quota they can be let go. A collection agency needs bill collectors that can produce dollars while maintaining a level of conduct compliant with the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

The only time I would consider speaking with a collection agency is when I have an offer for them. For example, I would give the dollar amount paid monthly, the total number of months to be paid, and the conditions of how I wanted this reflected on my credit report. They would then have to agree with those terms, put them in writing, sign the contract, and send me a copy. This would be a no debate discussion… here are the terms… period. If you don’t agree with those terms then contact me when you do.

Controlling the Conversation

The bill collector needs to stay in control of the conversation to steer you towards a payment. Maintaining control is their number one priority. Using a sort of psychological authority, since you owe them money, they proceed to make demands in a civil tone. A good collector is looking for verbal cues from you which will indicate what buttons he needs to push to separate you from your cash.

Collecting Asset Information

While the collector is buddying up to you… he’s updating your file with any asset information you provide. For example, if you say times are tough because you are paying on a house or vehicle note… well you just gave them an asset to add to your file. They will also inquire as to any land, homes, vehicles, savings accounts, or stocks, that perhaps you could sell to satisfy this debt. If you tell them that you have a job they will rightly figure that you can produce some monthly payment amount.

Lump Sum Demand

A collection agency will almost always demand a lump sum payment the first time you talk with them. They do this because many debtors are intimidated and cough up the lump sum. However, they do not need the lump sum and can be worked down to a rational monthly payment plan. Their goal is to get you on the phone, intimidate you with fear tactics, and proceed to collect as much moolah as possible. Did I mention that talking with bill collectors on the phone is a bad idea? A bill collector wants you on the phone – they don’t want you ignoring the calls, and instead, writing those pesky debt validation letters.

Legal Suit

Through the process of updating your file they will determine if they stand a good chance of collecting the money by pursuing a civil suit. If they know your house is paid for; this is a perfect asset for them to seek a lien against via a court judgment. If they know that you have a decent job they will seek to garnish your wages, and if possible, take money directly out of any banking account you have. A good candidate is one with at least one asset, at least a $500 balance, and the account is not in dispute.

Here are some good tips I found at wikihow.com for talking with collection agencies on the phone (if this article didn’t convince you not to):

You must keep a calm, reasonable and well mannered tone of voice. Any yelling, name calling or other verbal tactics will damage the image you’re working to project.

If they speak to you in any way that you find objectionable, give them one warning, as mentioned in your opening statement. The second time you should ask to speak to their supervisor. When you’re connected with the supervisor start again from step one.

Write down everything, including: the date and time of the call, name and position on the rep calling you, what they want, what you’re offering, etc.

Many times the names of the collectors are not their real ones. One way to figure it out is to send the signature receipt letter addressed only to that one person. If they sign back with their signature on the letter, they must be that person (otherwise it becomes a federal offense of mail fraud).

Sometimes you just can’t win because they won’t listen to reason or acknowledge that you legally are not obligated to the debt. In this case – you should establish a long paper trail indicating that they did not wish to collect on the debt in good faith. When they file your collection with the credit agencies, mail copies of your paper trail to all three, with documentation that they violated the Fair Debt Collection Act and demand removal of the claim from your credit report immediately.

Be very careful about making any payments if the debt is past the statute of limitations or about to be since that may restart the clock and you may then owe the full amount even if the collector told you that you would only have to pay a small amount and then they would leave you alone.

Discuss this article and meet new people at Debt Prison Forums.

Related Articles

* What is a Junk Debt Buyer?

* Restrictions on Wage Garnishment for Debt Collection.

* The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act

* Reasons not to file Bankruptcy or Settle Your Debts

* Can you go to jail for not paying your debts?

* How to settle your debts on your own

* How to deal with collection agencies

* Sample Debt Validation Letter

A recent reader at Sample Debt Validation Letter questioned as to whether or not requesting debt validation would prevent a collection agency from pursuing a judgment. Since his debts were nearly past the Statute of Limitations he was hoping to prevent payment and a possible appearance in civil court.  Debt validation often works on Junk Debt Buyers.  Junk Debt Buyers (Debt Acquisition) often buy packages of defaulted debt from an original creditor or another collection agency. Therefore as this debt is passed from collector to collector, some crucial details regarding your debt may become lost through the various transfer of hands.

**Disclaimer – Debtprison.net does not administer legal or financial advice. The contents of this website are my opinions on collection agencies and how to deal with them. Nothing on this website should be interpreted as legal advice or council. No opinions on this website should be used to replace the advice of your financial advisor or your legal council.

A collection agencies initial letter to you should indicate the original creditor and the dollar amount you owe. If your name, original creditor, or dollar amount appears incorrect you may want to consider debt validation. However, debt validation is not simply a means of getting out of paying your debts. In fact, a debt validation letter will draw attention to your account. Therefore, if you owe the debt, you may be better off simply ignoring their calls and letters. Whether or not this is a good idea will depend on many factors. You should use debt validation only when necessary. Since you probably don’t know anything about the collection agency… you won’t know if they:

Don’t have legal representation in your state in which to represent the collection agency in civil court.

Don’t have a track record of suing debtors.

Don’t have a track record of winning judgments.

Some collection agencies have no legal representation in your state. The smaller the collection agency the more likely they will not have legal representation. If their office is located inside your state then obviously they have legal representation. However, if the collection company has no legal representation in your state, they won’t bother suing you in civil court. They will not attempt a judgment. The only circumstance that may cause them to attempt to file suit, would be if they acquired knowledge that you, the debtor, has access to monies or assets which they could acquire. And the monies and assets are significant enough to warrant their time and expense.

Dear Barry,

Let me start by saying thank you for the website. It was extremely insightful and I had no clue that there were so many rights afforded to consumers, especially those who had gone through hard times. To make a long story short, I have received a letter from a collection agency, (Nelson, Watson and Associates, LLC) who claim to represent Palisades Acquisition. I checked my credit report and Palisades is on there and dinging my report.  However, there is no mention of the other collection agency anywhere and the amounts are vastly different (hundreds of dollars).

I won’t lie about it this was my fault. About 2 to 3 years ago, after being laid off, I went to a free counseling service. They very subtly told me to get my student loans and such paid current as I would never get out of it. However, they advised to let the smaller balances go to see if they would be written off (not morally right, I just didn’t have it). I was told to get a pre paid credit card that reported to the Credit Bureaus. They helped me plan a budget and told me in time the smaller balances might drop off. It would still affect my credit, but in time I could rebuild. I did everything they asked and things are improving, and my credit score is going up, very slowly but is improving.

I found your website and am very curious about the Debt Validation process and what the success rate is, if any. Also, if there are any negative repercussions that can come from this. In theory it sounds correct, however, I am a newbie at the collection game and am a little gun-shy. This account is also approaching the SOL for the state of Texas, where I live and while I know this was wrong I want it to go away. I am frustrated because things are finally starting to look up and here I am hit up again for money that is almost past the statue of limitations.

If I may I have a couple of quick questions….. I checked my credit report last night and Nelson, Watson and Associates are not on it anywhere, however, Palisades Acquisition is….. but Palisades Acquisition is not the original lender, it was originally XXXXX XXXX. In essence it appears to have changed hands three times. I feel that I have two decisions, I can attempt to settle, however, like you said, it starts the SOL clock all over and I am about three months away from paying one of my student loans off and maybe a DV could stall them until then, and then I could take that money and apply it towards the new bill…. I thought about what you said about the appearance of looking undesirable to them. I really don’t own much, but I do have a decent job and I don’t want my wages garnished. Any thoughts you wanted to throw my way would be appreciated. Thank you again and good luck towards your own endeavors to get debt free. You’re an inspiration to all of us in prison block D (debt)…. Can you believe all this trouble is over a $600.00 tab I racked up a few years ago?

Best Regards, Terry

Debt Prison response….

Debt validation is often used to get rid of junk debt buyers.  JDB’s are agencies that often buy debt past the SOL or was absolved by bankruptcy.  Since a lot of people don’t know what their rights are… many just pay up when they shouldn’t… and that’s how the JDB s make their money.  Or maybe you never heard anything about this debt before and you want to know exactly from where and when it originated.  Many consumers who take the time to research and write a debt validation letter (those who know their rights) end up never hearing from the agencies again (though the agency may sell the debt to another CA).

Debt validation is used to insure that the CA actually obtained the legal right to collect the debt from the original creditor.  It should also be clear how much is owed and the dates of default etc etc… In your case the CA probably has the right and can produce such paperwork.  You have the right to ask them to validate in which case they’ll send a letter stating that you owe certain creditor x amount of dollars.  Likely this is what they’ve already done with the first letter you received.  Debt validation won’t get rid of a legitimate collector with good paperwork and a SOL on their side.  And remember that any response from you – admitting you owe the debt or are willing to make payments – resets the clock on the SOL, which in TX is 4 years on a contract.

You could choose to ignore the letters in which case the CA may seek a civil judgment against you.  If you receive a summons for court you can go show up and dispute any part of the amount you feel like is questionable. If you are looking to prevent the CA from pursuing and want to stall them you could try a simple debt validation letter like this one only if the original letter didn’t already answer these questions.

Date

Your Name Address City, State Zip

Debt Collector’s Name Address City, State Zip Re: Account Number

Dear Debt Collector:

I am writing in response to phone call/letter received from you on date xx/xx/xx. Pursuant to my rights under federal debt collection laws, I am requesting that you provide validation of this debt. Note this is not a refusal to pay, but a request that your offices provide me with evidence that I have a legal obligation to pay you.

Sincerely,

Your Name

This is a basic DV letter and the original letter may have provided this info.  If you are hoping to stall a civil court date I doubt such a letter alone would prevent them from filing.  One thing that might keep them from filing suit is if they believe it would be a waste of their time.  If they believe.. that even with a judgment against you it would be difficult to collect the debt… they may not bother suing you.

I’m not giving legal advice, but rather my opinion. I forget to throw that in sometimes.. not that it’s necessary but in the world we live in today it seems you can get sued for anything.

Yes it sounds like the Watson Assoc group works debt collection. And PA is a collection agency with a heck of a fancy name… Yes I would request validation of the debt immediately. Now likely this company has gotten these letters before and is expecting it. I would request validation by sending a registered letter (keep a copy of the letter for your records). I would use a simple letter like the one I emailed you before. You just want to make sure that PA has the legal right to collect this debt and that their paperwork is in order. Also, I would contact the original creditor and ask them if they sold the debt to PA.

Now you stated that the original amount was $600. You can dispute any amount above the $600 if you feel it is unfair or not legitimate. You can dispute any part of their claim you’d like and even your credit report. For example, if the original amount was $600, but now its $1500 due to interest and fees… well I’d inform them (if they validate) that I am willing to pay $600 through monthly payments (or lump sum if you could afford it) and nothing more. If they won’t agree to your terms you can just ignore them. If they pursue civil action, that would be another opportunity for you to lower the amount by persuading the judge that some of the balance is not legitimate. “Hey your honor… this debt was originally $600 and now its $1500… this isn’t right” You could explain about your struggle with debt and how you had to make hard choices and couldn’t pay all your debts back at once. As a result you’ve been focused on paying one back at a time. Meanwhile the creditors and collectors ran up your balance with interest and fees. Any paperwork you have would be helpful.

Just bear in mind that civil action is not the end of the world, but may be another opportunity to lower the amount you repay. Also, if the amount is $1500 they may not even pursue a civil suit because of the time and expense involved. So you can further delay payment (possibly) if you dispute any part of their claim. Also, if the law firm seems hell bent on going to civil court.. you could write a letter to them explaining your desire to cooperate if only they’d come around and agree to your terms. You could tell them that their terms are unjust and unfair, and that if they’d agree to dismiss the part of the debt you feel isn’t fair… you’d glad begin payment on the debt.

However, agreeing to repay the debt under any circumstances is a last resort just prior to civil court. And if you do write such letters make copies, send registered mail, and make sure you show these to the judge so that it appears that were trying to satisfy this debt but the CA’s are unreasonable.

Discuss this article and meet new people at Debt Prison Forums.

Related Articles

* Restrictions on Wage Garnishment for Debt Collection.

* The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act

* Reasons not to file Bankruptcy or Settle Your Debts

* Can you go to jail for not paying your debts?

* How to settle your debts on your own

* How to deal with collection agencies

* Sample Debt Validation Letter

I’ve wanted to get some first hand information about why using debt settlement companies is such a bad idea.  I was glad to discover that one of my previous articles “How to settle your debts on your own” was dead on regarding why consumers should avoid using debt settlement companies. 

**Disclaimer – Debtprison.net does not administer legal or financial advice. The contents of this website are my opinions on collection agencies and how to deal with them. Nothing on this website should be interpreted as legal advice or council. No opinions on this website should be used to replace the advice of your financial advisor or your legal council.

I’ve been exchanging emails with one of my readers who has gone through a lot of financial peril recently.  But in particular, she has dealt with two different debt settlement companies.  I asked her to describe her experiences with these companies and explain to me whether or not she still thinks they are a good idea.  I’ll let you read for yourself what she says.  Feel free to leave questions or comments at the end of this article.

Hey Barry,
 
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. We are moving and I have been kind of busy lately.
 
My experience has not been a pleasant one at all. I guess when it comes to debt no ones is, but in particular I have found that these people are liars.
 
The first agency I used was Credit Solutions. I was trying to make a pro-active move, like when we claimed bankruptcy, taking care of the situation before the situation arises. Well, I signed up and they promised all sorts of crap. They promised that being enrolled in their program would prevent the collection agencies from obtaining a judgment against me, and it would give me protection. WELL, I signed up and soon found out that was a lie. After my first payment (the first 3 go right to their fee) I called to make sure the cease and desist letters went out. Well, they then informed me that I had to wait until the credit card debt went to collections before that company could deal with them.

They also informed me (after I signed up) that being in their program gives me NO protection – in fact it has been known to piss the creditors off when they find out that you are in a debt settlement company. In addition, their monthly payment was crap too, because they have a range that they figure they can settle your debts for like 60% to 40% lets say. Well, they base your monthly payment on being able to settle it down to the 40% to keep their quotes down. Well, basically that is great if all of your creditors agree to those terms – otherwise you are screwed (pardon the language) because you could find out after you have done this for 3 months that you dont have enough saved.
 
The second agency was GHS Solutions. This agency has pissed me off so much I am actually reporting them to TASC. They are a member of this group that regulates debt settlement companies. Well, they said all the right things right…..
 
1-  They started out by giving me some crap about how they cannot send out the cease and desist letters. They said that because I have 3 Washington Mutual Cards, and bank with Washington Mutual they (Washington Mutual) can run in and cease my bank account when they see that I am dealing with a debt settlement company. In theory that would be great for the credit card companies but VERY – EXTREMELY ILLEGAL! In reality it doesnt matter if they see that I am working with a debt settlement company because they have to go through the proper channels to be able to freeze my bank account. First, a judgment, then a court hearing for discovery, then if need be writ of garnishment and\or bank freeze. The procedure is the same no matter whether it is a card through your bank or not.
 
2-  I was begging them to send these letters out! My feeling was that I wanted them to see that I was in some kind of program and not just ignoring them. Every time I called GHS, I was telling them I was nervous, because by the time I got into their Company, ALL my credit cards had gone to collection agencies and had been there for months. I kept saying that because I havent been responding to the calls, letters (THE big rules of these companies is that you can not talk to the creditors or the collection agencies) like they told me not too, so now I have no idea what these companies are doing. They could be working towards a judgment against me or my husband as we speak. Well Dawn,( I get the same woman every time I call) she placates me and tells me that I am overly worried about my husbands wages being garnished, and that I am PROJECTING this whole situation on to myself.

Well, one night one of my husbands WAMU cards called and it was an attorney. She was actually a very decent woman, I explained to her that I was working with a debt settlement company. She said that there are two kinds of collections- 1- where the collection agency buys the debt and can then settle with a debt settlement company. OR 2- (her kind) where the agency doesnt buy the debt (the original creditor still owns the debt) – the agency just collects on it. She said when they (in this case WAMU) contracted her company they made her sign a contract giving her rules of how they want her to collect. For example, she can only try to collect the full payment at first, they after 30 days she can send me a settlement opportunity. BUT, she had to sign that she would only work with the debtor and NOT ANY debt settlement agencies.

She also told me that WAMU would never have worked with a debt settlement company most likely BUT had they only gotten a letter (perhaps the cease and desist letter I was begging for) she said it probably would never have gotten to her desk. They most likely would have just held back until they got a payment from me. Because at least they would have known I was trying to do something and not just ignoring them. But now that they paid for her there is not much I can do.
   
When I called GHS, Dawn, informed me that the woman was lying and wasnt really an attorney. I told her that I wanted out of the company, and that I am going to be claiming chapter 13. She then of course gave the speech as to how bad that is for your credit. I then explained we had claimed chapter 7 over 4 years ago, and it was the best thing that ever happened to us. We had no credit problems afterward. I told her I have no problems paying for my debts settled or in full. My problem is while I am working to pay everything off I want some kind of protection to assure me that these companies are not going behind my back and obtaining judgments. By the way it is against the law for a company to fire you for one wage garnishment BUT there is no precedent for multiple wage garnishments.

Also, when your employer garnishes your wages (even if they do not initiate it) they have to pay a fee. I told Dawn that I thought everyone at GHS was a bunch of lazy people, and that I knew that they were just holding off on sending the letters out until all of their fees get paid (over 5 monthly installments) and that since time is of the essence for my particular case I didnt know if it could wait that long.

So, in the long of it, I would NEVER recommend a debt settlement company to anyone! I hope this helps. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Thank you for all your effort on the subject, and trying to figures things out for people.
 
Thanks
Jennifer

Here’s a few comments from other people who claim they used Credit Solutions.  You can read these comments from the source by clicking on this youtube video – which appears to be sponsored by Credit Solutions.

“DO NOT USE CREDIT SOLUTIONS!!! Credit Solution is the worst company!!! I signed up thinking that they would be able to help me and what they did is get my account in worst condition!! The collection company was able to sue me and put a lien on my account! Then I try to defer my payments with them and they continued to try to get their payment!! All this company wants is money!! They do not want to help you!! DO NOT USE CREDIT SOLUTIONS!!! ”

“DO NOT sign up with these people. This is such a hoax. I have been with them for over a year now and tryng to get out. This is a joke. Does you more harm than good. Trust me on this. ”

“the shadiest thing in the world…wake up people they DONT work with your creditors…they store your money in a escrow acct and wait to the accts are charged off and then they settle for pennies on the dollar, by then your credit is screwed..type in debt settlement in google ”

Discuss this article, share ideas, and meet new people at Debt Prison Forums.

Related Articles

* Reasons not to file Bankruptcy or Settle Your Debts

* Can you go to jail for not paying your debts?

* How to settle your debts on your own

* How to deal with collection agencies

* Sample Debt Validation Letter

* Information on Credit Card Balance Transfers

* How I Escaped Credit Card Debt

* What You Should Know About Credit Cards

* How to seek bargains for food and clothes

Reverse Mortgages are, in my opinion, a last resort for homeowners age 62 or older.  If an agency is offering to help you find a reverse mortgage lender for a ’small percentage’ of the loan then just stop talking to these people.  HUD provides this information without cost, just call 1-800-569-4287 for the name and location of a HUD approved housing counseling agency in your area.  Also, if you are being urged to take out a reverse mortgage to obtain a deferred annuity then stop talking to these people as well.  Deferred annuities are a bad idea for most seniors because they can restrict access to retirement savings well beyond one’s life expectancy.  You can also receive free information about reverse mortgages by contacting AARP at 1-800-209-8085.  Considering that 45% of reverse mortgage borrowers are single women, getting the right advice from objective parties is critical to honest information.  Please do your research and closely analyze the pros and the cons before making a decision about a reverse mortgage.

**Disclaimer – Debtprison.net does not administer legal or financial advice. The contents of this website are my opinions on collection agencies and how to deal with them. Nothing on this website should be interpreted as legal advice or council. No opinions on this website should be used to replace the advice of your financial advisor or your legal council.

The problem here is that there are vast seas of people in various industries (and possibly family members) who would love nothing more than to get their hands on your hard earned money.  A financial decision involving hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably the loss of your home should be made with caution.  So let’s take our time, do our homework, so that we can make an informed decision.  Separating the good information from the bad can be difficult because of all the people trying to get their hands on your money.

A reverse mortgage should only be considered if your income is such that you cannot pay your bills and you plan on living in your home until your death.  You are willing to tap the equity in your home using a reverse mortgage – but only with the complete understanding that your home will likely be sold at the time of your death by the lender – or by a family member selling the home to repay the?reverse mortgage.

What is a reverse mortgage?

From the AARP website “A reverse mortgage is a special type of home loan that lets a homeowner convert a portion of the equity in his or her home into cash.”  Let’s put this into practice.  Your home’s market value is $250,000 and you only owe $100,000.  This leaves you $150,000 of equity that could possibly be tapped using a reverse mortgage. Let’s say your current house note is $900 per month.  A reverse mortgage could approve a $100,000 loan and supply this in $900 per month increments to you.  You could then use this $900 per month payment from the reverse mortgage to pay your house note.

This is how the commercials for a reverse mortgage can say things like “eliminate your house note,”  or “a reverse mortgage will get rid of your house note and provide you with cash for any use you see fit.”  While all of this is true these commercials fail to mention the “Cost” of this reverse mortgage.  You didn’t actually think they were just going to give you the money with no future financial obligation on your part?

These reverse mortgage loans often have very high fees (more on this later) and interest continues to be added over the life of the loan until it is repaid or you die and your estate has to reconcile the debt against your home.

The good things about a reverse mortgage

The reverse mortgage loan is a mortgage against your house which is paid by a lump sum, monthly payments, or a line of credit – usually some combination of these three. Your qualification for the loan is not dependent on your income or credit rating. Only the value of the home versus equity is considered.  The reverse mortgage does not have to be repaid until you die or move out and you get to remain in your home (keeping the title).  The lender cannot come after your other assets such as other properties or investments, the loan only applies to the house.

The bad things about a reverse mortgage

From consumerlaw.org (you should click on this link) “Reverse mortgages are high-cost loans.  Origination fees and insurance premiums typically eat up $25,000 or more of the total proceeds of a common reverse mortgage on a $250,000 house….Interest charges, which pile up over the life of the loan get added on top of that.”

If you take out a reverse mortgage and then later on decide to move you could be left with less cash than if you had simply sold the home in the first place without acquiring a reverse mortgage.

If you are not in love with your current home perhaps you could just sell it instead.  If you were left with $100,000 cash after the sale, could you move into an apartment instead and just keep the cash on savings?  At a rent of $700 per month that much money would last you about eleven years if applied only to rent.  As you can see there are many options to consider.

**Remember do not take out a reverse mortgage to buy other financial investments.  The fees and interest of the reverse mortgage kill any profit you may earn from investing. Also, it’s true that a reverse mortgage allows you to pass the home on to your heirs – but keep in mind that the price tag of the mortgage will still be attached to it.  What good is passing on a home to heirs with an $110,000 debt unless your estate has enough assets to cover this debt, leaving your heirs with the likely choice of renting out the home or selling it altogether?

This brings me back to my original statement.  Don’t take out a reverse mortgage unless you are cash poor, need money for monthly bills, and you are not bothered by the idea of your home being sold at the time of your death.

The USA Today has an article describing how reverse mortgages could be unwise, especially in early retirement.  In the article they interviewed Ernestine Boach age 62, who had taken out a reverse mortgage to buy deferred annuities since a financial adviser told her it would be a “wonderful deal for me.”?  To keep her home Ernestine ended up taking out a loan in the amount of $140,000 to pay off the reverse mortgage so she could keep the house in the family in the event of her death.

“I was naive,” she says “I still am.  I don’t understand all these policies.  But I hope this story helps someone else.”  Indeed, that makes two of us.

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